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Factor
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Joined: 16 Jul 2003
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26 2008 02:01    
Is madtracker dying?
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I normly am a positve person, but I knowticed that these board aren't like they used to be.

I still admire Yannick for all he has done for the tracking comunity, and even for me as personal help he gave me when I needed him using mt2 (and even beyond that )

I tried up setting a new chainsong... it's not gonna work I can tell you now Crying or Very sad , Not happy about it, but what the hell changed this place to a zombie site ?

I know I am not verry active here, so no hard feelings if you blame me on that. but this site was once full of intresting people posting daily...

I wish we can restore this forum activaty, Yannick we need you on this one I gues Wink

I hope anyone can give this forum or site an adrenalin aid to get the MT hart pumping again!

Yannick, we need somting to let the old school guys come back! And try to get Inge back! Wink


Arjen
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sheepoid
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Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: England
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26 2008 08:03    
Re: Is madtracker dying?
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* MadTracker is no longer being developed, it would seem.

* The community is a shadow of its former self (not that I ever participated very much).

* No maintenance upgrades / bugfixes released for nearly two years.

* The 'Bug report' section of this forum is essentially superfluous.


Does that answer your question?


Regards,

David.
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G3ronimo
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Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Wezep
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26 2008 12:03    
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Oh well ^^ I kinda switched to an other music program + I found an other forum Smile


www.soundsector.net
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goose
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Joined: 11 May 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26 2008 13:55    
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I really want to reply, but not sure where to start - too many related thoughts...

Thing is for me, I was never into "tracking/demo scene", but always loved tracking (in an unmusical sense.) I ended up on this site, just to learn more about using MT. Yes there were more posts before, but I've noticed different names posting in different eras in different amounts anyway, so change will always happen like that. I've joined chainsongs and had fun doing so, but I've never released my mods, and don't really listen to other's mods....

I've mostly not liked most tracked music I hear released as mods. It's often too cheesy and musical for my tastes, and I could see why this alone would put off other newcomers to the "scene" looking for a program to make quick, modern tracks with easy effects automation and heavy productions.

There are those that understand the power of tracking, though, and realise how great tracking is for certain music. Like jungle, breakcore and Speedcore.... These folks tend to use forums specific to the music genres and that's where a lot of the interesting tracker discussion is found. Those genres, I believe, also attract new folks to tracking, as they want to be able to do that type of stuff. eg Venetian Snares now uses Renoise, so I bet others do just because of that. So nowadays, I'm more likely to find a good tracking tip on a non-tracking forum. There have definately been less newbie questions that need answering on here lately. I've also noticed that outside of this site, when trackers are recomended, MT is rarely on the lists. Always Renoise, Skale, MPT, Buzz, even IT etc etc

I tend to use MT for certain aspects of my production now, especially sample use - drum break editing, lead lines, pure sine wav subs, and use other software to compliment. I think this is a great, flexible way to work for me, and I'm not sure that even a hypothetical all-in-one MT3 would stop me working like that now. From my perspective, I'd suggest that MT needs "focusing" - and this would be a big step away from Yannick's original goals, perhaps - but focusing on what trackers do best and try to improve on that. Be a "specialist" tracking software rather than competing with the usual bloated all-in-one sequencers. Maybe that's the key to getting MT3 up and running. Maybe MT2 needs some more releases...

Sorry for the rant. too many thoughts to contain. so I'll stop here!

Very Happy

PS, I'm up for that 2008 chainsong. I'll try to start a track for it.


Last edited by goose on Wed Feb 27 2008 20:42; edited 2 times in total
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goose
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Joined: 11 May 2003
Location: aroundabout
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26 2008 13:56    
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G3ronimo wrote:
Oh well ^^ I kinda switched to an other music program + I found an other forum Smile


What do you use now?
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Factor
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Joined: 16 Jul 2003
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05 2008 03:17    
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I agree with Goose. And to add even further... The .mt2 was never accepted at sites like modarchive, and is indeed rare at CTG for instance compared to all other tracking formats. But everybody do know Yannick, and do know Madtracker... Were did this went wrong?

Madtracker (.mt2) is ofc way better then any .xm .mod .it etc format.

But it just never grew to become accepted in the oldschool roots which were always big, as Modarchive Crying or Very sad


But, mostly I'm sad about this forum. People using "other trackers or programs" used to pop up here to check out the latest news, or to join a Madtracker competition/event. People using difrent trackers "swaped to madtracker" just to be able to compete! Cool That's an odd, but very big oppertunity chance to get people even more involved on this site Wink

I remember the first webcast from inge (big compo) we had like 110 people on MT @ IRC chatting, it was so fucking awsome!

People came here because of the friendly community, which it still is, but only on a 15% level of which is once was...

Keep tracking people, I need to figure out some stuff, to post, in this topic. Wink


Factor
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G3ronimo
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Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Wezep
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06 2008 09:46    
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goose wrote:
G3ronimo wrote:
Oh well ^^ I kinda switched to an other music program + I found an other forum Smile


What do you use now?


Sonar 7, way better Smile


www.soundsector.net
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MM
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Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Location: Rheine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06 2008 11:22    
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hmmmm... I don't know what else I could say... I think it's sad that the development has stopped. I'd wish for a MT3 with a fully working midi sequencer. I just love MT2 because it is so close to FastTracker and of course for the FT mode itself. that's like two programs in one. I'm working with MT for almost two years now and I don't feel like needing another program at the moment. I tested renoise, it is too heavy for me. too much stuff in too less space. additionally I haven't reached my limits with MadTracker so there is still a lot space for experiments for me.


Infos, music and more @ mm.blogsport.de
>>VISIT BINÄRPILOT!!<<
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CHICAGO¤lollie
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Joined: 05 May 2003
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07 2008 10:33    
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I'm gonna just throw this out there.

I've been using MadTracker since before the first MT competition - easily seven to eight years now, so using MT is practically second-nature to me. During these past years, I have played around with other music programs on the side (all bar one of them were specialty-trackers for chip and game, and platform-based trackers for the GameBoy/DS/PSP), but naturally I just come back to MadTracker. It's most likely a comfort-zone thing, but outside of the few still-existing bugs, I feel there's little limitation in what can be done with it.

Now, I mentioned "all bar one" for programs I've played around with. The latest one I tried was Ableton Live 7. I have used it to experiment with (it's got an in-program Acoustic Bass preset synth that I've played around with), its beat-sync and time-stretching is nothing short of a miracle, and a few of the plug-ins I've grabbed that didn't work properly in MT work just dandy in Ableton.

But then that's it. While Ableton is perfect for live use, I can't see myself using another program other than MadTracker for all my main music work. I'll admit that I plan to keep using Ableton on the side, but when it comes to music production; Well, I'll probably keep my computers on Windows XP just so I can continue using MadTracker. Also, Vista scares me.




Regarding Goose's post:
goose wrote:
From my perspective, I'd suggest that MT needs "focusing" - and this would be a big step away from Yannick's original goals, perhaps - but focusing on what trackers do best and try to improve on that. Be a "specialist" tracking software rather than competing with the usual bloated all-in-one sequencers.

Personally, I don't quite see the point of MadTracker being a specialist tracker. What could it specialize in? Why focus on just a few key areas? If anyone in the commercial world saw MadTracker's "specialist" fields as potential competition, it could easily be beaten right down and out of play.

I understand the advantages behind risk-taking, and my thoughts are overblowing it, but if someone wanted to work on just one aspect of tracking, there's nothing stopping them from simply ignoring the other super-features.

Not like I exactly always prefer bloat. Photoshop, anyone?


MadTracker does need a push back into the field, no contest to that. But until we can get some more programmers in that understand music, what the goals in MadTracker are, what the users want, and are willing to aide Yannick in bringing MT3 to a polished, working status, what can we do?


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Vincent.V.
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08 2008 08:27    
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Now, here is my point of view:

1 year ago, after my good old amiga died, i got my first win-computer, and after a break of several years i decidet restarting music tracking.

I found two trackers suitable for me: Madtracker and MED Soundstudio. I installed both.
Since MED SS is the programm i used on my amiga, i purchased this one first.
But a had to realise soon, that i won't get the same feeling i had on my amiga.

in addition, the sound was i little bit too dry, the plug-ins for mp3-exporting did't work properly and MED's community is dead.
Furthermore - according to madtracker - this program hasn't seen an update for ages

So i had a further look at Madtracker:
I listened to some demo songs and also the forum seemed more lively than the MED-forum
Then there was a build-in chat and the magical word: VSTi
So a bought this programm.

But soon i had to realize that although looking very familiar, Madtracker was completely alien to me.

At first i had even problems with loading and playing a simple sample or creating a simple volume-slide.
The keyboard-shortcuts are non-windows-conform, and there is no manual.
there are some very good tutorials indeed, but there is no manual. It can be very annoying, connecting to the internet, digging throught hundreds of tutorials every time when looking for a special feature.
For a newbie, madtracker must be horrible. At least it was for me.

So tried finding some help here in the forum or in the chat.
The most time the chat was empty exept of the bot and some "dead" MTusers. So you barely get an answer when asking sometging.
and if so, the answer is a link to the tutorials Rolling Eyes

The same here in the forum: when asking something it takes up to a week, before you get an answer - if you get one.

After recognizing this i got fed up with Madtracker and tried finding another Music-program.

I discovered Psycle and Renoise.
Both programs are powered by a very lively helpful community and offer vsti support.
But Psycle is even more alien to me than madtracker was at the beginning.
So i was up to register for Renoise.
But i didn't because it seems to need a lot cpu-power and so short after registrating Madtracker, i was neither motivated paying another registration fee nor learning the usage of a new program.

So i remained using MT. Meanwhile i feel quite familiar with MT and i appreciate its functions.
But there are still some issues wich drive me almost mad, like some bugs, the uncommon, not changeable keyboard-shortcuts or the missing undo/redo function. Especially the last one really stinks! Mad
I don't know how many tracks i messed up due to this.

Please don't take it as an offence, MT is still very powerful; But this tracker is almost 10 years old and it hasn't seen any updates for years...

I think that's one of the reasons why the MT-comunity has almost gone.
Many futher users became (semi-)professional meanwhile and started producing for labels.

IMHO MT or any other Tracker is not capable for commercial purposes, due to a faster producing with programs like Cubase, FL or logic.

The Demo- or tracker scene needs a lively Community for communication, feedback or exchanging mods.
So they may prefer Programs like Renoise or Psycle where they are about to find more ACTIVE members than you are able to find here (sorry, but thats my experience here)

and newbies? they may loose patience very soon when
trying to get started with MT and only barely find help by the community, since this seems to be the only forum handling with Madracker.

Concerning me, i think i'm still going to use MT for a couple of moths or maybe longer. I don't know
Meanwhile i feel quite familiar with it and it still meets my demands.

But i must admit: I'm thinking about changing to renoise or psycle due to it's community and support.
Please don't take it as an offence, but sometimes I need also some "chit chat" in a forum, discussion about various issues
I don'T need the "perfect programm" or the "perfect community!"
But i need to see something beeing in progress.

And to answer factor's question:
Yes, I think Madtracker is about to die. It's about to experience the same fate like MED, Protracker, Impulstracker, Fastracker or skale Tracker.

Unless there won't be an update or maybe a facelift very soon.
But - to be honest - in my opinion Madtracker and it's community is already dead. We only haven't realized it yet.

OK, now you may quarter me, lynch me, burn me up... whatever.
But i think this was a pretty realistic point of view.


i hate signatures Wink
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elblanco
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09 2008 06:28    
so depressing!
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Perhaps what you are saying is true, but I think that there is still the possibility of growth. For example, I'm a completely new user, converting from Impulse Tracker at long last, and loving it! (Not that I've made anything in IT since like 2001, but that's because I felt like I couldn't squeeze anything more musically out of the tool)

I've tried a little bit with renoise and psycle, but just *couldn't* get into them.

At least in my case, MT2 is helping me push past the musical barriers I was hitting into with IT. The stuff I've been making with MT2 represents my personal favorites over pretty much all of my old music (and I go back in the demo/music scene to '92!). I have a feeling that there are tons of old time sceners like myself who've dropped off the radar and gotten involved in real-life, who can't track anymore because IT or FT2 doesn't work anymore on modern systems. And with a little prompting would love what MT2 has to offer.
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Soldan
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Joined: 12 Nov 2007
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09 2008 14:15    
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I use Madtracker for a few reasons

1) Because its low enough cpu usage to run on my computer

2) I prefer the tracker style sequencer

3) Its easy to learn how to use, and easy to use in general

4) The built in mixer, drum machine, FX, and wave editor are simple, reliable, and they do the job (at least for me)

5) Madtracker has the capability to easily do things that are much harder than they need to be with other software. For example the other week I wanted to hook my Electribe to a software sequencer. First I tried using Reason, only to eventualy find that it has no midi out for some stupid reason. Then I tried Logic which I'm not familiar with at all and I couldn't even find a sequencer, never mind figure out the midi. Then I thought maybe Madtracker could do it and sure enough, not only can it be done but its simple as hell.

I do not plan to stop using Madtracker any time in the future. That being said I think there are allot of things that could have been implemented with relative ease, in order to make the program better, for example:

1)support for greater than 16 bit samples. I was surprised recently to find that Madtracker doesn't support higher than 16bit Wav, since the program prides its self on its ability to manipulate samples. But I suppose in the old school scene there were no 32 bit float samples were there?

2)Recording nob movements into automation, and a better automation editor

3)The ability to use tracker commands without learning the whole system of their input. If the tracker commands could be handled by automation as well as keyboard programming that would be awesome

4) A drum machine that could be copy and pasted into the tracker and have the ability to use fx and have multiple sample combinations.

But thats just my wish list and I know everyone has theyr own.

As to this whole issue of how to bring Madtracker back from the dead so to speak, I don't know if it even makes sense because everyone seems to have their own idea of what needs to be changed/updated in the first place. But realistically I think one of two things would have to happen.

1)Madtracker begins to reach enough commercial success to make it worth Yannick's while to invest a large amount of time into the project. That seems unlikely to happen.

2)Someone else with money and or programming/development resources decides that Madtracker has commercial potential and decides to buy the rights or work out some sort of deal with Yannick. This I think is more likely but still pretty much unlikely.

It seems obvious to me that the only people who really care and have a vested interest in the future of Madtracker are the current users and thusly it naturally falls to us to ensure that its development progresses. With that in mind, I think its time that one of the pro users releases a hit album and dedicates it to Madtracker Laughing Ok but really, maybe if enough users were interested we could all get together and buy the rights to Madtracker and then we could pay Yannick or someone else to continue the development.

Well thats my 2 cents

S.
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elblanco
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10 2008 03:25    
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Soldan wrote:

2) I prefer the tracker style sequencer


Agreed, I've tried using formal note editors and piano roll style editors and found them slow, clumsy and frustrating. Tracker style is really designed for computers, it's as close to "typing" in music as you can get.

Soldan wrote:

3) Its easy to learn how to use, and easy to use in general


I'm not sure to agree with you or not. I've found MT2 pretty easy to get into, even with its interface quirks (especially the FT2 more than IT style interface). But I think people new to music writing on a computer might get turned off. With a bit of effort, the results can be fantastic, but it can be...not obvious how to get those musical results at first.


Soldan wrote:

4) The built in mixer, drum machine, FX, and wave editor are simple, reliable, and they do the job (at least for me)


Funny that, I still have used many VSTs yet since I'm able to accomplish most of what I want with the built in effects (never underestimate the power of a good reverb).

I wish the wave editor had a couple more features...but it's not too shabby for a quick edit. I love the graphical loop builder.


Soldan wrote:

1)support for greater than 16 bit samples. I was surprised recently to find that Madtracker doesn't support higher than 16bit Wav, since the program prides its self on its ability to manipulate samples. But I suppose in the old school scene there were no 32 bit float samples were there?


I think also an import option for mp3 and ogg samples would be good (probably converted on import into wav). I would also like to see the ability to hold an arbitrary number of samples.

Soldan wrote:

2)Recording nob movements into automation, and a better automation editor


I have to agree here. The automation is *sooo* close to being completely awesome, then falls down. I also notice it doesn't seem to work 100% with VSTs I've loaded in, so I can't even get it to work some of the controls I want it to work on.

Soldan wrote:

As to this whole issue of how to bring Madtracker back from the dead so to speak, I don't know if it even makes sense because everyone seems to have their own idea of what needs to be changed/updated in the first place. But realistically I think one of two things would have to happen.
...


IMHO, I think the third option is for the MT2 community to also reach out and try to bring new blood into the community. I think this is critically important. An active message board, new faces etc. is really necessary to keep something alive. Heck, there is still a decent Impulse Tracker community out there because of that kind of community activism! I think MT2 deserves that kind of vocalization to keep giving it momentum.
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cHiEfRoCkA 4 ReaL
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Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10 2008 18:19    
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I started with Soundtracker on my Amiga 500.

Switched to Noisetracker, then to Protracker.

Then I finally got my first PC and discovered Fasttracker.

Finally I found Madtracker!

Madtracker is kinda based on those Trackers mentioned there so I already knew the basics.

Whether developed or not: For the music I do it´s totally enough and I´m quite satisfied with it.

Which doesnt mean that I dont want it to be developed further.

But I´m tired of trying other programs...
Once I tried Cubase but after 10 mins I deinstalled it again.

I know, my songs are not perfectly mastered but for presenting it on the internet I think it does the trick!

To make it short for my opinion:

MADTRACKER IS THE SHIT!!!

Smile




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Frazze
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Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Location: Lund, Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11 2008 11:12    
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Well said. The only thing that I can't do in MadTracker is record stuff, and that's not what it's made for.

Also, and this I'm sure should be a source of great shame, I don't really hear the difference between 16 and 32 bits, and I've been makeing music, with MadTracker, for 5 years. So, the whole sound quality thing doesn't bother me much.


http://www.last.fm/music/8ism
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