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papa bear
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Location: underneath the desk, wearing headphones
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 14:51    
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i'll team up with just about any of you guys. hell ... people this in depth and intelligent? hell yeah.

while we're at it, how about taking care of all the internet issues. tha'll only add about a month or two. you get on it, souleye, and i'll be busy beating off your paparazzi for ya.


he who does not continue to learn, has learned nothing ...

d|^..^|b

http://johndoe007.bandcamp.com
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Vantek
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Joined: 21 Feb 2007
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 15:51    
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Haha

SoulEye wrote:
If someone read your last post and thought "Well... Shit. I guess I should face it, I'm no good at this. Better not go for it", which I think is easy to do

But is it? I said nothing but encouraging words about working for the creative process itself. What I discourage is working for unrealistic external goals (success, recognition, money etc). You can only go "shit better not go for it" from reading my post if you are involved in the creative process mainly for these external goals.

If that really is the case, then I do think a reality check is due. If someone who is about to embark on a creative journey would consider it a waste of time it if he didn't hope to get x amount of money or y number of fans, then he really should consider what is the realistic possibility that he gets x amount of money or y number of fans. Otherwise he is in danger of wasting his time by his own standard.

I wholeheartily encourage not giving a damn about the x and y in the first place. But it is my experience that people do tend to develop illusions about them waay more often than they tend to incorrectly be too pessimistic about them. It is my experience that people who have a genuine strong drive to be creative, will not let anyone persuade them otherwise anyway. So when this subject is brought up, I would sooner concentrate on where mistakes tend to happen, rather than where people are prone to do the right thing anyway. The mistakes are much more prone to happen in the form of being too narcissistic and having illusions of grandeur, than they are in the form of being too pessimistic and letting your creative drives get crushed. Creative drives tend to be something you can't supress if you incorrectly wanted to.

If you are creating for the sake of creating, then I really hope it's very difficult to read anything except "go for it!" out of my post. If someone really manages to do that... Sorry!

Quote:
People become what they believe they will become

Only within realistic limits. If I truly sincerely believed that if from this point on I disregarded everything else and concentrated on making music that I would become a famous millionaire producer... The most likely outcome would be a broke and crushed person who wasted the true opportunities he had in favour of a mad illusion.

Now so extreme delusions happen rarely of course. But it is my clear experience that people are prone to leaning towards that side of the scale, than towards the opposite, not believing in yourself when you should. This seems pretty obvious scientific fact actually. If you poll people about their abilities, they are vastly overconfident. 90% of people think their intellect is above average. Similarly, 90% would probably think their musical talent or writing talent or acting talent is above average. If you take people in the beginning of their creative career, I think majority of them will say they think they will be successful. The reality is, majority of them won't.

It's easy to point out the successful people and say, "Look, he believed in himself, and it was rewarded." How about the big crowds of people nooone knows anything about, who believed in themselves just as strongly, and got badly punished for their mistake, got their dreams crushed and wasted everything they had on a bad bet? That is a mistake that people really do that is actually common and impactful. I think letting people persuade that you're no good for it when in reality you really are good for it is a mistake that happens waaaay less often. In order for you to be good for it, you need to have a strong drive for it. If you have a strong drive for it, it's very difficult for anyone to persuade you otherwise.

EDIT: Hell, I would probably be even way less likely to actually become a famous millionaire producer if I believed that. Because then, I would quickly get completely crushed and never try again. But by understanding the reality, by recognising that it is only a minuscule chance that I achieve that, by assessing the situation in such an "uninspirational" level-headed way, I feel I am actually giving myself the best chance to achieve it. Because this way, I don't ever feel negative. I will still take advantage of every creative spark that emerges. If it leads to nothing, no big deal. It has just as good of a chance to actually lead to something though, as if when I believed all of that crap. Because success is about that spark itself, and not about hoping to achieve any external goals.

In order for you to really be capable of becoming that successful, you need to have that drive or else it's just not going to work. If you do not have that drive, you can believe all you want, it's not gonna work. If you do have that drive though, it's very unlikely anyoone will be able to squelch it, not even yourself, so it doesn't matter if you don't believe you'll achieve anything. If you have that strong drive, then you cannot help but follow that drive even if you believe you are not good for anything and will never achieve much. That's why I don't see any need to encourage anyone. People who are really up for it do not need any encouragement. They will go for it even if the whole world is against them, that's what it means to be up for it.

Look at yourself SoulEye. You seem to have had problems with people being very discouraging towards your dreams. Now it might have been unpleasant but was it really ever an actual strong threat? Do you really feel that they could have ever changed your mind? I doubt it. That they could not change your mind no matter how hard they tried, is the reason why you could succeed in the first place.


Last edited by Vantek on Thu Mar 10 2011 16:09; edited 1 time in total
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SoulEye
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Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Location: Helsingborg, Sweden!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 16:03    
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Edit due to your edit: There has been some adversity and some still persist. It has had an effect on me, muting creativity. Had I known then what I know now, I'd let go of any attachments I had to how the world viewed my work and put myself out there much much sooner. Nowadays I can even deliberately play guitar out of tune and sing poorly on purpose just to make a humorous point.

We obviously share some views and differ in others. You make a lot of sense and levelheadedness is absolutely an asset. I'm pretty pleased in how this turned out with both of us voicing our dispositions, and while there is no cookie-cutter mold for how to approach this subject I hope that anybody going on the adventure chooses a path filled with fun and integrity. Thanks!


http://www.souleye.se

Last edited by SoulEye on Thu Mar 10 2011 16:32; edited 1 time in total
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Vantek
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Joined: 21 Feb 2007
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 16:10    
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Same to you! =)
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Vantek
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Joined: 21 Feb 2007
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 18:48    
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Ha, I will not make an edit due to your edit due to my edit. Instead I will make a new post.

Hmm... I think we might be talking about different things here.

I had in mind extraneous goals such as pursuit of money and recognition. I don't think lack of belief in being able to gain money or recognition was what ever held you back?

You seem to be having in mind just sort of... Being confident that what you are doing is meaningful and worthwhile? Regardless of any money or recognition. Not about objective belief, just subjective evaluation? That some people who mean something to you think or have thought that what you are doing is lame or silly or something? And that you are not immune to them having this attitude. In this case, I do have only words of encouragement to say, I thought I made that clear enough, sorry if I didn't. If you just enjoy creativity for the sake of creativity, you should ALWAYS go for it. If you enjoy it, who is to say otherwise? The enjoyment you get from it is itself all the justification anyone could ask for. You don't need anyone else to confirm it, that you yourself like it is enough. Just ignore any negative attitude someone might have.
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SoulEye
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Joined: 31 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 19:05    
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I think both are intertwined. If you don't think your music is worth anything for anyone else you will never charge for it, and it probably never enters your mind.

And if you want money and recognition you must believe that your stuff is good in the first place, or else you're fooling yourself.

If you want to live off of music, you do need confirmation in the form of money from people who will buy your services.

I've talked to people who are better musicians than me who thinks that selling $100 worth of product is great, when they could be making $10000 if they were to network just a little, and perhaps change the direction of their life altogether in a positive way. That saddens me. And this is just because people are unaware of the possibilities that lay open for them, and maybe - just maybe - it's because they stopped looking because nobody ever told them that they could actually pull it off.


http://www.souleye.se
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Vantek
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Joined: 21 Feb 2007
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 20:37    
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Hmm... Well what do I know Razz Guess it's not as simple as I tried to make it look like.

But, one should be careful with these sorts of decisions. You cannot just always say "believe in yourself and you will succeed". It's not so simple like this either. Some people truly believe in themselves and end up in a very bad situation because of that.

As always, everything in moderation... Believe in yourself, but not too much... ^^

In any case, I enjoyed talking to you. It's always very interesting to hear from someone who (from what I can tell, sorry if I'm way off =P) used to be in a very similar situation as I am right now, just messing around for fun, and then actually managed to turn that fun into success. And it's great how you are also able to state your points with such clarity and shrug off my demagogue techniques like nothing ^^
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SoulEye
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Joined: 31 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 21:02    
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I don't know about your situation all that well, but I thank you sincerely for the compliment. I do try.

As for demagogue techniques, it becomes easy when I read between lines. Then I just go to the core of the problem instead of attacking the fluff. For instance, the blanket statement of "being careful with decisions like this" is kind of poisonous to me because there's nothing to grasp at, no example to relate to, and therefore leaves the reader to wonder in their frightened imagination as to what terrible situations one can into - and quite possibly think that 1) making money is dangerous, 2) this business is corrupt, or 3) I Better not try.

Now, I know that you don't actually mean that (or actually SAY that for that matter), but the point of your communication is not what you say, it's how it's interpreted. My response would then be something like...

Now let's get one thing straight: I recommend having the facts, doing some calculations, and knowing exactly what's happening - in detail. If you trust yourself to have a levelheadedness about that then the risks you take won't be as big. Insecure people will fall into traps if they trust the wrong person. My tip would be to reach out to many people. The internet is full of friends/fans/experienced veterans who will gladly help you out with advice. It's nothing mysterious, but you need to learn what's what. After that, you DO need to take a risk, like it always is when putting yourself out there. Then you win some or learn some. You miss 100% of all the shots you don't take.


http://www.souleye.se
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Vantek
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Joined: 21 Feb 2007
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 22:36    
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Looks like in the end we don't really disagree much Razz That's like, exactly the way I view things. It all comes down to statistics.

Basically, only thing I meant to say was, you can go wrong both ways. Both by overestimating your abilities and by underestimating them. Just this thread had so far only talked about how you shouldn't make the mistake of underestimating your abilities, so I wanted to point out that there is another side to the coin. The same way as you say my "poisonous" comment might scare someone, your "sweet" comments about believing yourself might feed someone's illusion. Yes, it is possible to make a mistake by being too pessimistic and not taking a risk that is worth it. But it is also possible to make a mistake by being too optimistik and taking a risk that is not worth it. Both should be considered.

But as long as you are level-headed and take time to consider the facts with honesty, it really shouldn't be much of a problem either way. That's the key.

Perhaps if the thread had so far only talked about how everyone should probably just abandon their dreams and never even try, I had instead argued passionately that come on, don't be so pessimistic, everyone who was successful started from somewhere, and if you don't try you never find out ^^ Just usually there is no shortage of the positive inspirational side of the argument, so I end up having to be the cynicist if I want to bring some balance to it Razz
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SoulEye
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 22:44    
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Haha! Very Happy
That brought a smile to my face!

Basically, what I meant to say was that you can go right, both ways.

It's a subtle change of perspective, but to me, it's very profound - and worth looking at.

Thanks for being the cynicist - without some polarity, there's be no discussion. Razz

Have a good weekend.


http://www.souleye.se
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Vantek
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Joined: 21 Feb 2007
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10 2011 23:16    
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Haha you too! Cheers ^^
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SX001
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Joined: 22 Sep 2006
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11 2011 09:57    
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SoulEye wrote:
one line uttered was "The amount of success a person has can be measured in the size of the pack of critics he has".


well... so far I have felt _mostly_ negative critics which
wants me to bash down, knock down or they are just jealous
actually. Constructive critics is rare.

Quote:

That said, I'm now going to practice making 8-bit junk melodies in order to take over the world and become a pimped out chiptune billionaire with ten models hanging from the chandeliers of my own Las Vegas penthouse hotel before I become president of the USA, single-handedly cure cancer, find the fountain of youth, reverse global environment problems, and make every person in the whole world happy. I estimate it will be done in.. oh... 6 months. Wanna team up?


Oh yes.

well, ok, but what about other way...
naah, I dont want to get in USA, its not my climate, its
totally ok to me to get just back that surrounding in other town where I was before and I felt lucky. Thats all.
So, is it simpler? Hard to say. NO ONE can say what is realistic or not. It can end up in reality. Also, it can be nothing as I havent dreamed big enough.
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SX001
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Joined: 22 Sep 2006
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11 2011 10:00    
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Vantek wrote:
Haha

SoulEye wrote:
If someone read your last post and thought "Well... Shit. I guess I should face it, I'm no good at this. Better not go for it", which I think is easy to do

But is it? I said nothing but encouraging words about working for the creative process itself. What I discourage is working for unrealistic external goals (success, recognition, money etc).


NO ONE can say whats realistic. Or if someone can then how you define realistic (see my post above and compare the goals of mine and of SoulEyes in text).

But if just giving up then it had no chance at all!
I only know that if thats what you do is what YOU want then it has worth whatever if its realistic or unrealistic to others. thats why I live. if not living my own will then i am living someones others life. the others mainly dont care at all, the only case is to use your powers to their own interest.
So, just everyone -- do what YOU want to do.
Even in worst case -- if it ends up then you will be satisfied at all becouse you followed YOUR own will and path -- It has always worth to try atleast.

Also, whats the reality?
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SX001
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Joined: 22 Sep 2006
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11 2011 10:08    
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Vantek wrote:

If someone who is about to embark on a creative journey would consider it a waste of time it if he didn't hope to get x amount of money or y number of fans, then he really should consider what is the realistic possibility that he gets x amount of money or y number of fans. Otherwise he is in danger of wasting his time by his own standard.


it has always worth to try if thats what he was living for.

"wasting his time?" -- what he should have done otherwise? The time is wasted only if doing something he does NOT want to do!
You cant say that the time was wasted becouse he did not succeeded.
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SX001
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11 2011 10:27    
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Vantek wrote:

Basically, only thing I meant to say was, you can go wrong both ways. Both by overestimating your abilities and by underestimating them. Just this thread had so far only talked about how you shouldn't make the mistake of underestimating your abilities, so I wanted to point out that there is another side to the coin.


Thats something new. So, perhaps majority have overestimated their knowledge and limits.

ACtually it would be interesting to know, what is your background, how are you related to music?
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