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D Vibe
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Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Thu May 15 2003 16:02    
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Again, I don't care what kind of music people listen to, and again I don't say that commercial music must be crap.
I'm just saying that I think it's very wierd that MOST of the commercial stuffs are actually crap.
I don't find what the hell people see in Las Ketchup. Sorry. I can't! There's nothing in it. I don't see the point of making music just for partying! I think that music should contain such strong material that it gives you some sort of independent feeling. If music is only made to sell (which is Las Ketchup's case), and not for the composer's/producer's own feeling, it's not music any longer. Though if someone else might think it's music, then it's ok for them to think so... I just think it's sad!

Don't you see what I mean?

/Daniel


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Walter Vos
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PostPosted: Thu May 15 2003 16:39    
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I do... Rolling Eyes


what is hip?

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mikx
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PostPosted: Thu May 15 2003 17:22    
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whoa, TNK that was the longest post i'd ever seen, good effort man!! Smile

anyway, people buy pop music because its the whole hype of it- because everyone else likes it too thats why its POPULAR! and why does everyone like it? because it gets radio airplay 24/7 on big stations.. notice most pop tunes are pretty catchy so that people can catch on to them (duh!), ear-candy.. or the lyrics are something they relate to, or whatever..

but the main idea behind everything is to get everyone to agree that its a good song, so then they will feel that they 'belong' to a group of people that like this particular song... and when people feel they belong, it sells like hotcakes!!!

it's all about making people feel good. if you find that 10000000 people in your country like the same thing as you do, you're sold!! thats why a billion teenagers in this planet like the same crap music.

good old marketing..

Cool
-mikx
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TNK / ATK project
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PostPosted: Thu May 15 2003 20:51    
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Hi!

Seems someone launched a topic that gets lotsa people involved Smile

>I'm just saying that I think it's very wierd that MOST of the commercial stuffs are actually crap.

It depends on what your criterias for saying that something is crap are. I might repeat myself, but I do not consider neither that any commercial track is cool, far from that !
My "Yuck!" list is long too. I just consider it is pointless to spread it out because it's just my feeling and that I don't feel the right to impose my view on this to other people.

>I don't find what the hell people see in Las Ketchup. Sorry. I can't! There's nothing in it. I don't see the point of making music just for partying!

There we are ! Las Ketchup being a party-track, of course then you can't understand it.
Partying has - in every civilisation around this world - a strong social role, and is therefore important. It's therefore normal that this aspect has it's form in music.

>I think that music should contain such strong material that it gives you some sort of independent feeling. If music is only made to sell (which is Las Ketchup's case), and not for the composer's/producer's own feeling, it's not music any longer.

Right...but what about composers/producers whose own feelings make them do some...music to party ? I think every music style conveys a given set of emotions, and party music does also. It conveys fun, energy, lightness and such things through melody & rythm (not the words ususally, that's why party tracks often feature insignificant lyrics). Some people like to party on funny tracks that puts a smile on (well, almost) everyone's face...and some people among whom I am even like to give others that feeling of being happy and lightyears away from their everydays worries (that's usually what you feel when you feel yourself a natural-born entertainer).

I don't know whether Asereje (Las Ketchup's hit) was only made for the money or not, I don't know it's composer personally. But one thing is sure : I know people who do compose party tracks that set the floor at least as much on fire as Las Ketchup, and who never got a cent for their music (altought they would dream of, but not to become a billionaire, just to be able to quit their day jobs and focus on what they dream to do full time : music). Those people for sure do it because they like that music. Of course, they often get flamed for the commercial aspect of their tracks, but they don't care. They know their own feelings and know that by doing this, they are really doing the music they feel.

>Though if someone else might think it's music, then it's ok for them to think so... I just think it's sad!

>Don't you see what I mean?

I see. But there's one thing I wonder :
Should I :
1) Keep on making commercial music because I like it and feel it and remain considered as an idiot who does only music for the money (even if my bank account is quite low in fact).
2) Do more underground stuff that does not comply to my personnal artistic goals & feelings, but that will make me considered as some diehard underground king and as a true artist.
?

Wouldn't then, in my case, commercialism be to choose option number 2 ?

>whoa, TNK that was the longest post i'd ever seen, good effort man!!

I am known on several forums for having beaten the longest post record Smile ... And also always got the "Should stop chatting with his neighbours during science classes" remarks at school...Smile

>anyway, people buy pop music because its the whole hype of it- because everyone else likes it too thats why its POPULAR! and why does everyone like it? because it gets radio airplay 24/7 on big stations..

That is in some point true. One experience would be interetsing : Completely stop radio airplay of the top50 hits and watch what tracks are still played on Mr.Lambda's hi-fi set 2 months later...there you would get the true hits that really touched the listener's feeling and not only his "Be a sheep, do as everybody does" aspect of his/hers personnality.

>notice most pop tunes are pretty catchy so that people can catch on to them (duh!), ear-candy..

That's what a hit is supposed to be : To take you with it to it's world. Ear-candy songs follow some rules that have been proven to have some true feelings on the audiance, and this for centuries.

>but the main idea behind everything is to get everyone to agree that its a good song, so then they will feel that they 'belong' to a group of people that like this particular song... and when people feel they belong, it sells like hotcakes!!!

Emm...I'm sorry. But just take Eurodance for exemple : A style that has a selling potential of millions...but have you ever met someone, except maybe a few weirdos like me, who admitted they like that style ?
Believe me, much more people pretend they puke on popular music...but still it sells, sells, sells...

>it's all about making people feel good.

That's true. There are enough other things in life that make feel you bad that people prefer music that makes them feel good.

>if you find that 10000000 people in your country like the same thing as you do, you're sold!! thats why a billion teenagers in this planet like the same crap music.

That is true...but then, why just this music ? If the marketing were the only explanation, any musical style could do as well.

Regards,


Switzerland : #1 earthquake provider! (Bootyshakin' Willhelm Tell ?!?)
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D Vibe
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Joined: 04 May 2003
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PostPosted: Thu May 15 2003 22:05    
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It feels like I'm repeating myself:

1. I've never said that people can not listen to whatever music they like.

2. I've never said that every commercial track is only made for selling.

3. I've never said that making either commercial tracks or underground tracks are better than each other. I don't understand where you got it from.

4. I HAVE said that I think it's fake and damn sad that SOME producers AND record company only produce music for its money. And NOTHING else. And I think it's VERY sad that many people falls for that trick!

5. This thread, which I started for people to express themselves what kind of music they think is the worst music they've heard have gone very wrong now. I'm not going to involve myself into saying that some people's feelings are right or wrong. Just face that! This whole thing started that you, Tnk, tried to tell us that we're wrong when we say that "Hey, I don't like Aqua and Las Ketchup, because I think their music f*cking stink". Let me and the rest of us believe what we believe is crap music in our own minds.

Let's hope that this pointless discussion ends by this.

/Daniel


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TNK / ATK project
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PostPosted: Thu May 15 2003 22:57    
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Hi !

>1. I've never said that people can not listen to whatever music they like.

Yep, but it's a fact that some people do not think that way and therefore "censor" every kind of said as commercial music. It already happened to me.

>2. I've never said that every commercial track is only made for selling.

You not, but I have often been told I do commercial music only for money, which is plain wrong. Believe me, the idea that someone who makes this kind of music only does it for the money is very widespread.

>3. I've never said that making either commercial tracks or underground tracks are better than each other. I don't understand where you got it from.

From all the radio guys who refused my tracks because they were too commercial (the commercial radios refused them too, because I was not pushed by a major company...), from the overall spirit that is around. I studied in a film school for 2 years, and my passion for commercial movies was not that apprecied...and it's the same in music, and not only in your eyes : the big $$$ labels see us only as potential one hit wonders, just because they do not respect "commercial artists" as artists.

>4. I HAVE said that I think it's fake and damn sad that SOME producers AND record company only produce music for its money. And NOTHING else. And I think it's VERY sad that many people falls for that trick!

So don't you think that producing "commercial" music with a true artistic spirit behind and not only money thirst is the best alternative to this ? Sooner or later, the true feelings behind this would get recognized by the masses and the money only guys will have to find another business then.

Regards,


Switzerland : #1 earthquake provider! (Bootyshakin' Willhelm Tell ?!?)
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D Vibe
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PostPosted: Thu May 15 2003 23:08    
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TNK / ATK project wrote:
Hi !
>4. I HAVE said that I think it's fake and damn sad that SOME producers AND record company only produce music for its money. And NOTHING else. And I think it's VERY sad that many people falls for that trick!

So don't you think that producing "commercial" music with a true artistic spirit behind and not only money thirst is the best alternative to this ? Sooner or later, the true feelings behind this would get recognized by the masses and the money only guys will have to find another business then.

Regards,


Ofcourse, if music is made with real spirit, and then although sells good (I can name many good popular artists/groups), we have a totally different angle.

/Daniel


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TNK / ATK project
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PostPosted: Thu May 15 2003 23:17    
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c-frog wrote:
Ofcourse, if music is made with real spirit, and then although sells good (I can name many good popular artists/groups), we have a totally different angle.

/Daniel


OK, so we agree on that. Sorry for bugging in the above posts then, as we obviously share the same point of view.

It's just a fact that it is very annoying to me to have to face all the clichés of commercialism because my music often (not always BTW, my "Looposphere" track has been played on several "free parties") is defined as commercial (I prefer the words "Popular" or "Catchy", as the word commercial implies the $$$ thirst), and not to be recognized for what I really am.

I had quite long discussions about it with an underground techno label founder last year, and after I managed to "prove" her I do the music I do because I really like it, he admitted indeed that some (if not many) people in the underground had narrow minded opinions on this and that it was really stupid.

Regards,


Switzerland : #1 earthquake provider! (Bootyshakin' Willhelm Tell ?!?)
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Pjo2000
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PostPosted: Fri May 16 2003 01:56    
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Wow TNK, you really seem to be on the front line fighting for this subject, you seem very passionate about it.

as with my earlier post which sorta sparked this whole thing off. I think the main thing that annoys me about all that music, is that it is churned out relentlessly to earn money. In the big money making machine that is the music industry. Like they give a shit about what they are releasing.. please..

some record companies just spend most of there time finding half decent singers and say.. Here is the song, and this is how you will sing it and heres what you will be called. Limited 1 single contracts.. with the ultimate goal of flogging the first million to dj's and then the rest to club goes who hear them.


I honestly get offended, when a one hit wonder artist comes out with a piece of crap song (although popular) that has bits borrowed from here and bits borrowed from there.


Also some things should just be left alone.. like 80's songs. I am a big fan of some 80's stuff and those fucked up remixes ruin them, by DJ-this and DJ-that... jesus is everyone a stupid dance producer now.

I hate it when they take genre's and exploit them by making POP hybrids.. and thus making the original style seem weaker than it is because now its sorta commercial...

I know its progress.. but why cant music just be music.. why does it have to drag on and on until every last dallor is squeezed out of it , before they move on and steal the next big thing.


I just hate the POP format.. the way every song is set out the same way.. and sounds similar to the one before it...
And the way that the industry thinks that people are so fickle that if they dont release commercial/pop music that noone will by music..


honestly.. can anyone tell me, that they have been over someones house and only seen commercial cd's in there cd rack? of course not. everybody has vast tastes and has cd's that arent commercial. artists that has nutured them and influenced them. The artists that get pull out everytime someone new comes over.. because they are interesting... Talented..... have something original to offer..


unlike COMMERCIAL where you know what your gonna get before you take the cd out of the cover.


that in itself is the difference.. the fact that pop is care free and you can just about put anything on and its bound to be so perfectly sounding, perfect length, perfect vox in the perfect spot.. etc etc..


and thats what i hate about it... its predictable.

pjo2000


http://www.projectoverkill.com
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Enonimis
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Joined: 05 May 2003
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PostPosted: Fri May 16 2003 04:59    
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TNK / ATK project wrote:
Hi !

>I don't want to defend anyone else, but I prefer dancing to music I like, like heavy industry/EBM or something .

Of course, you are right on this : listen the music you like. But it is also a fact that there is some kind of "politically correct" to puke on popular dance music.

>Also, why people buy crap music, I do wonder aswell. I guess it's based on the fact there are less genious people than dumb ones. I don't want to claim anyone for being dumb, but some people don't even have a musical ear so they can hear if a song is out tune.

Everyone is more or less out of tune...Some of the considered as greatest singers of all time sing out of tune. Georges Brassens, a very acclaimed french singer (who is far from dance music, believe me!) is almost always out of tune, but who cares...

>I have an answer for you; commercials. People get blind by them and don't see anything else but that product.

But in this case *every* music piece, if properly marketed (= if commercials were made for them) would become an instant hit. So why isn't it that way ?

>You know, even though you don't think about it yourself, you choose a product which you've somewhere seen or heard about,

Of course, it helps, that's why communication is so important. I personally had the occasion to listen to many different styles of music (and by far not only what I can hear on the radio!), but it turned out that what did the best to me was some commercial pieces (I say some, because I don't like - by far! - everything that is played on radio nowadays).

The problem is that this "anti-popstyles" political correctness makes that it is very hard to go through an independant system when you do popish music (and it's also very hard to go through the major companies system for some obvious reasons).

>even though you don't know anything about it.

To know something of it, you must already know what it is. Commercials (and communication in general) is about making people discover what they not yet know. But this can go for anything - and any kind of music in that case.

>So what has this to do with music ? .. Well ofcourse, people buy that music they've heard on television and radio, because they don't dare to waste money on something unknown.

I know. A part of the problem is there. One point on which I agree on what is said by the others here is that I don't like this cover craze that goes around nowadays. For exemple, the "Madhouse" tunes (not Yannick!) : individually taken, they are well produced, well made but...they are all Madonna covers ! Of course, this is much easier to sell : Madonna is a trademark, any unknown "rising star" isn't. I would personally have prefered that those madhouse guys had put their efforts on producing new tunes, that we did not hear before...but probably, even if their style & production would have been the same on origninal tunes, nobody would have signed them...

>The Las Ketchup phenoma for example .. What kind of crap music is that ? I mean, it's no good melody

Well, to my opinion it is : Easy to remember, easy to sing with. Everything that is needed to make a hit.

>It's no good production,

It's not that bad. With a good amp, it gives good results.

>it's no good text,

Who cares ? Music that is made for partying only requires a text so that the audiance can sing to it. You can't convey any deep meaning in a party song, because the topic of a party is exactly to forget ones worries for a while.
And about the text...OK, Las Ketchup's text has no meaning (even in Spanish), but what if it had one ? Most people who danced on it (and on many other latino hits) do not speak spanish...so even if the text came out of a Literature nobel prize, nobody except those who speak spanish would have understood it !

>and they don't even look good!

That's also a point some will agree and some won't. They are quite typical of what Spanish boys consider as good looking girls.

>Why the hell do people buy that music? .. Because they've heard it so much that they after a while start to like it.

Personally, I have heard many styles of music, but for every style I know, I got hooked on from the 1st notes I heard of it...or never got hooked on at all, despite the overwhelming marketing done around some styles I don't like.

>They think "Hey, this tune is cool, I better buy it!".

Don't you rather think that such music creates a certain kind of feeling (happiness, uplifting feeling...) people may like ?

Regards,


Damn it man, take a breath


If you do not agree with my opinions, you are wrong. If you do agree with my opinions you are drunk.
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Pjo2000
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PostPosted: Fri May 16 2003 08:07    
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Wink by the sound of it all, it looks like you might have to lend your signature to somebody else for a while enon Laughing


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D Vibe
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PostPosted: Fri May 16 2003 08:52    
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Pjo2000 wrote:
honestly.. can anyone tell me, that they have been over someones house and only seen commercial cd's in there cd rack? of course not. everybody has vast tastes and has cd's that arent commercial. artists that has nutured them and influenced them. The artists that get pull out everytime someone new comes over.. because they are interesting... Talented..... have something original to offer..


I've actually met a girl, which dated a friend of mine for a while, who said that she's only listening on such music they play on the radio Smile. Otherwise I don't think I've been in anyones house where there's only commercial one hit wonders stuff.

/Daniel


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Enonimis
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PostPosted: Fri May 16 2003 11:44    
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Evanessence: Saw them on TV (by chance because I don't watch TV it's super-gay) and liked their song. Downloaded a few of their tracks on Kazaa and what do you know? They were good. Really good I thought. Same thing happened to me with Portishead, saw them on MTV late at night many many years ago and checked it out, struck gold. I guess their are diamonds in the rough at times, if you're into watching television to find them... Mad
But if you do you are retarded, and super-gay.
cheers,
~Enon


If you do not agree with my opinions, you are wrong. If you do agree with my opinions you are drunk.
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Inge
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PostPosted: Fri May 16 2003 13:08    
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Enon: I agree and I´m sober. Does that imply a problem to your signature?

The first time I heard the single by Evanessence, I knew I had to get that album. It´s really commercial but nice emocore-low-level-entry gothic rock. Portishead has also been a treat for the ears for a great many years now.

Sometimes even commercial television can´t prevent good music getting through the maze that only permits disgusting music. But then again, tv lies, so there´s no use watching it Smile

Dedicated not-tv-person,
Inge


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TNK / ATK project
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PostPosted: Fri May 16 2003 20:35    
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Warning : another long post incoming...

>Wow TNK, you really seem to be on the front line fighting for this subject, you seem very passionate about it.

I am.

>as with my earlier post which sorta sparked this whole thing off. I think the main thing that annoys me about all that music, is that it is churned out relentlessly to earn money.

This is the case in *ANY* industry in the world. But the problem is that those who are against this seem to focus on the wrong target : the problem is not the music itself, but the mentality that is behind, the system that works that way. And don't believe that everyone that does pop (and all it's alikes & subgenres) only does it for the money, because this is plain wrong.

>In the big money making machine that is the music industry. Like they give a shit about what they are releasing.. please..

That's true. Many label executives do not even recognize the tracks they publish in blide tests. But once again, the fault is not the music itself, but the mentality of the industry.

>some record companies just spend most of there time finding half decent singers and say.. Here is the song, and this is how you will sing it and heres what you will be called.

Yep, that's a real problem, and that's something I also fight. But once again, this has nothing to do with any given musical style, it has to do with how the star system works.

>Limited 1 single contracts..

I know these...and even if the guy has the talent not to be a one hit wonder, he will become one, because the equation : Pop dance music = one hit wonders only has been accepted by so many. That's something to fight against.
Believe me, the reason of this is not the to be found in the record companies (that would have everything to win to let a given artist do several tracks : less casting works...) but rather by the large commercial radio networks who like to push one given track from an artist and then ban him, whatever he does. It's what they call the "Cinderella effect" : For (put any artist name here), the dream has come true... at his/her 1st single...but 2 month later, they use this trick again with a new "cinderella"...and guess who gets no more airplay ? The 1st one... Blame them ! That's what sucks !

>I honestly get offended, when a one hit wonder artist comes out with a piece of crap song (although popular) that has bits borrowed from here and bits borrowed from there.

I don't know *ANY* style where all songs do not sound a bit like each other.

>Also some things should just be left alone.. like 80's songs. I am a big fan of some 80's stuff and those fucked up remixes ruin them, by DJ-this and DJ-that... jesus is everyone a stupid dance producer now.

No...but the radios & majors think it's by far too risky to let people hear new sounds. "They don't know your song, they for sure won't like it"...believe me, I heard this so many times. They prefer releasing covers of song that already made their proof. Believe me, many dance producers produce original work...but only those who cover 80's songs get radio airplay...guess who's to blame ?

>I hate it when they take genre's and exploit them by making POP hybrids.. and thus making the original style seem weaker than it is because now its sorta commercial...

That's rather a good point. I consider the underground as some kind of lab, full of test tubes. Some give nothing, some contain wonderful elements, and it's those aspects that make it to the "commercial" world.

>I know its progress.. but why cant music just be music..why does it have to drag on and on until every last dallor is squeezed out of it , before they move on and steal the next big thing.

Because the executives are often narrow minded. I have a formula to calculate the narrow-mindness of the musical world. It's this one : [Number of covers released]/[number of songs released in general]...The closer it gets to one, the worst the industry goes...and it's a pity it's very close to 1 nowadays...

>I just hate the POP format.. the way every song is set out the same way.. and sounds similar to the one before it...

As many styles do. But believe me, the one who manages to add the little extra to it that hasn't been heard before gets it all...

>unlike COMMERCIAL where you know what your gonna get before you take the cd out of the cover.

That's not the problem, as long as what you gonna get is cool. It's just a proof that those guys master the arts of visual communication.

>and thats what i hate about it... its predictable.

Isn't almost everything ?

Regards,


Switzerland : #1 earthquake provider! (Bootyshakin' Willhelm Tell ?!?)
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