DJ Tiago
User
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed Nov 15 2006 08:25
Foundations for a PRO SOUNDING TRACK! |
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Hey, I think I'm not a bad composer. But I'm terrible at the final cut quality. Like making it sound clean and professional. Just wondering, what foundations need to be in place to make a professional sounding track?
I have some ideas:
1) Audio mixing. Making sure the audio is not too loud in certain sections. IE not too loud synth that it drowns out the bass, Etc. I assume you start off with having the kick at a certain volume. But at what decibel, or some other measure of loudness? Or does that not matter? Does only the relativities of the sounds together matter?
Also, does it matter to have the song clip (the yellow button) in madtracker? Is it important I keep it not clipping at all?
2) Clean sounds: What determines a clean sounding composition? Is it up to the quality of the sample you are using? Or is it up to the use of the delay and reverb settings used on the sample? Both important or one is more important than the other?
3) Mastering. I have no idea. EQ this and EQ that. What's the point? All I know is that you need to EQ either the midrange, low range or high point of a song right? Prior to that make sure the loudness of the song is optimal. I've read the tutorials but have no idea.
I'm onto something good with my composition and I want to keep going. But at the same time I don't want to dirty the quality. At the moment it sounds clean.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I feel like the only person who hasn't got much of a clue on this part of composition. |
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StyrmanLjungberg
Registered User
Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Location: Östersund, Sweden
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Posted: Wed Nov 15 2006 17:46
Re: Foundations for a PRO SOUNDING TRACK! |
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| DJ Tiago wrote: |
1) Audio mixing. Making sure the audio is not too loud in certain sections. IE not too loud synth that it drowns out the bass, Etc. I assume you start off with having the kick at a certain volume. But at what decibel, or some other measure of loudness? Or does that not matter? |
I usally start with every channel at default position and as I compose the song I make a rough mix at the same time. For example, when adding a new instrument I make sure the volume fits well from the start. Then of course when the whole song is finished I make a final mix!  Most important thing is to lower what's too high, rather then raising the level of the rest. That will probably help ensure you don't get any clipping too.
| DJ Tiago wrote: |
2) Clean sounds: What determines a clean sounding composition? Is it up to the quality of the sample you are using? Or is it up to the use of the delay and reverb settings used on the sample? Both important or one is more important than the other?
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The quality of samples and VSTi's used is of course the grounding for a good sound. I think EQ'ing each channel is the most important thing to get a clean sound. Make sure no instruments are intefering with eachother. Bass and kick is a good example of that. Make sure the kick get's a little boost on the lowest frequencies and cut the same frequencies on the bass using an EQ. And by that I do not mean that you should to this with every instrument, they need to cross to make the song not sound flat and.. boring. Experimentation is the key here. Learn by doing, after a while you learn what sounds good and what sounds less good. That's what I do at least. If you have vocals, drop the lower frequencies of the voice a little, and raise the higher a little to get some brilliance and cut "muddiness".
| DJ Tiago wrote: |
3) Mastering. I have no idea. EQ this and EQ that. What's the point? All I know is that you need to EQ either the midrange, low range or high point of a song right? Prior to that make sure the loudness of the song is optimal. I've read the tutorials but have no idea.
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I rarley do mastering, I most often get the sound I want right inside MadTracker. But I guess compression and EQ is the largetst key here. As above, EQ everything so that it sounds fine. Compress, but don't over compress, to get a little more power. It's very hard to give guidelines since every genre and artist has it's/his own sound. My tip to you is to listen to other music in the same genre, try to listen for the difference in volume level between certain instruments, what frequencies are brought in front etc. etc. Then open up your mt2 and go wild, experiment! 
I'm no expert, far from and I bet there are people here who can give some rough guidlines at least, but as I said, it's hard since it differs alot. ^^ My point of view though. Hope it's worth something  |
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G3ronimo
Hot & Sexeh
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Wezep
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Posted: Wed Nov 15 2006 18:39
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ooookey here is the stuff I usualy do,
first get high quality samples&VST, dont go with muddy low quality sounds (unless you want to make it sound dirty, then I still recomend to use a clean sound and use a VSTe to make it "dirty")
like styrman said, avoid clipping by lowering volumes instead of boosting
hmm, next I would put some sound warmening/enhancer thingy on the master ( I use PSP MasterQ with a certain preset that cuts all low frequencies off below 20hz)
another thing I use a lot is PSP Vintage warmener also on the master, I have no Idea what it does but it makes my sound more... warm?
for eq'ing I make a small dip in the 200hz area, some tip I read from qbical.. it works like a charm, makes your base more "intresting"
ofc when eq'ing I boost the high frequencies for the percussion.. boost the low freqs a litle bit.. ehm.. thats kinda it. I think Andy should post here, he is the master in .. mastering (damn Im good  ) |
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DJ Tiago
User
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
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Posted: Thu Nov 16 2006 03:04
Re: Foundations for a PRO SOUNDING TRACK! |
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When you say EQ each channel, StyrmanLjungberg. Do you mean EQ it in Madtracker? The EQ function for each channel in madtracker? How do you know you're EQing the low range, mid range, or high range for that in madtracker? |
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N0N
Registered User
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Nov 16 2006 08:13
Re: Foundations for a PRO SOUNDING TRACK! |
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| DJ Tiago wrote: | | When you say EQ each channel, StyrmanLjungberg. Do you mean EQ it in Madtracker? The EQ function for each channel in madtracker? How do you know you're EQing the low range, mid range, or high range for that in madtracker? |
Not to be denoting Madtracker at all, but the eq built into Madtracker isn't good. I've had clipping problems and verious other minor to major problems with the Mt eq. If you can use LinearPhaseGraphicEW 2.1.5 or NyquistEq5 . look them up. but mastering is all about the speakers you use. not head phones!!! yes head phones can be good but for the all round master some form of all round speaker system must be used. And if you cannot afford it and just dont have it ask arround I'm sure some one here has it.. I have a mid range setup, and think it does well enough. but obviously I can tell a 1,000$ setup from a 30$ setup, and so can others. I have a 250$ setup, for monitors. And still I know the difference and try to compensate for it, but it's hard. |
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G3ronimo
Hot & Sexeh
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Wezep
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Posted: Thu Nov 16 2006 10:30
Re: Foundations for a PRO SOUNDING TRACK! |
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| N0N wrote: | | DJ Tiago wrote: | | When you say EQ each channel, StyrmanLjungberg. Do you mean EQ it in Madtracker? The EQ function for each channel in madtracker? How do you know you're EQing the low range, mid range, or high range for that in madtracker? |
Not to be denoting Madtracker at all, but the eq built into Madtracker isn't good. I've had clipping problems and verious other minor to major problems with the Mt eq. If you can use LinearPhaseGraphicEW 2.1.5 or NyquistEq5 . look them up. but mastering is all about the speakers you use. not head phones!!! yes head phones can be good but for the all round master some form of all round speaker system must be used. And if you cannot afford it and just dont have it ask arround I'm sure some one here has it.. I have a mid range setup, and think it does well enough. but obviously I can tell a 1,000$ setup from a 30$ setup, and so can others. I have a 250$ setup, for monitors. And still I know the difference and try to compensate for it, but it's hard. |
n0n, what monitors do you use? |
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N0N
Registered User
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Nov 16 2006 15:32
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Nothing great but they work a hell of a lot better then the 30$ pc monitors I did have. I use Klipsch lucasfilm certified THX, and they have done wonders for my sound, before it was random chance that I would mix something good because I couldn't really tell, now I can tell, well mostly. |
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cHiEfRoCkA 4 ReaL
Registered User
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Nov 16 2006 15:38
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This topic kept me busy for a while...
I also wanted to make my tracks sound more pro.
I tried out several tools from Cool Edit over to T-Racks till it made me mad....lol.
The other thing is....I only have headphones.
I cant afford pro speakers right now.
I always thought there must be a cool tool which has some nice preset in it to boost up my tracks a bit...to make it sound more pro.
MY other thought was to send a track to a studio to get a sample how it would sound if it is mastered by a pro.
But the I thought "f...k it"!
It´s ok like that for the things I use and till I´m not signed yet its ok.
If you r lucky and get signed by a label they gonna master it for you anyway....or correct me if I´m wrong.
The other thing is:
Mastering an Instrumental is not the same as mastering a track with vocals like mine...right?
I´m a total noob when it comes to mastering so I just stick with the procedure I used to.
Unless someone got some good tips for me . |
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StyrmanLjungberg
Registered User
Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Location: Östersund, Sweden
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Posted: Thu Nov 16 2006 15:46
Re: Foundations for a PRO SOUNDING TRACK! |
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| DJ Tiago wrote: | | When you say EQ each channel, StyrmanLjungberg. Do you mean EQ it in Madtracker? The EQ function for each channel in madtracker? How do you know you're EQing the low range, mid range, or high range for that in madtracker? |
Sorry for being unclear! I suggest you get a graphical EQ like the g3 said. I personally use Classic EQ since my system is not made for CPU intensive stuff and that works fine for me. Simply a EQ VST on each channel. I do not use the built in MadTracker EQ since it doesn't offer as many frequency bands. And with a graphical EQ you get the to see the low mid and high range in an understandable way |
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Frazze
Registered User
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Posted: Thu Nov 16 2006 17:41
Re: Foundations for a PRO SOUNDING TRACK! |
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| N0N wrote: | | Not to be denoting Madtracker at all, but the eq built into Madtracker isn't good. |
My comment is this: No it's not good for using as a ordinary eq but it's great for when you need brutal changes in sound. |
http://www.last.fm/music/8ism |
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Ravana
Registered User
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: Oulu, Finland
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Posted: Thu Nov 16 2006 17:50
Re: Foundations for a PRO SOUNDING TRACK! |
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| Frazze wrote: | | N0N wrote: | | Not to be denoting Madtracker at all, but the eq built into Madtracker isn't good. |
My comment is this: No it's not good for using as a ordinary eq but it's great for when you need brutal changes in sound. |
Agree with Frazze here. Depends on what you are after. I have used MT EQ a lot and I like it as it is. If you wanna smooth EQs for smooth mixing, it's not for you. |
http://www.mikseri.net/artists/thejollynekromanseri.51046.php
http://www.mikseri.net/artists/bewaretheconstruct.62202.php
MT source files available if requested (maybe) |
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N0N
Registered User
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Nov 16 2006 20:12
Re: Foundations for a PRO SOUNDING TRACK! |
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| Ravana wrote: | | Frazze wrote: | | N0N wrote: | | Not to be denoting Madtracker at all, but the eq built into Madtracker isn't good. |
My comment is this: No it's not good for using as a ordinary eq but it's great for when you need brutal changes in sound. |
Agree with Frazze here. Depends on what you are after. I have used MT EQ a lot and I like it as it is. If you wanna smooth EQs for smooth mixing, it's not for you. |
True, but hence why I don't use it . but about mastering, and using Mt's eq most times wont be used on every track. here is a vst that will be of great help to you all in making good masters. http://askywhale.com/vst/#DETECTCOMP and http://www.voxengo.com/product/SPAN/ used in conjunction with the Classic Master Limiter and the LinerPhaseGraphicEQ 2 http://kuro.nengu.jp/tools_c3_lpgeq2.htm , usually finnishes my mixes after I balance out most of the sound.
I don't use them that order, the order I use is, LinerPhaseGraphicEQ 2, Classic Master Limiter, VoxengoSPAN, and finally Detectcomp. and I've have used this in every one of my recent songs. Understanding Detectcomp is what really helped my music the other's. and as always to help you understand how it is used, take some songs you like in the style your going for and put it in MT and look at how it reacts with everything. then put one of your songs into it, and compaire. Do it about 20 or 30 times playing with the LinerPhaseGraphicEQ2 during playback to see how it changes. Good stuff for visually getting the job done if you can only use headphones. I also use super stereo but I cannot find a place to download it anymore. hmm.. |
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G3ronimo
Hot & Sexeh
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Wezep
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Posted: Thu Nov 16 2006 22:49
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gahr, thats it... Im gonna write an article about this..
mt needs more articles.. and i think this is usefull (gimme a lot of weeks ^^) |
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Franklin van Uden
Registered User
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Nov 17 2006 17:21
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Well,
What is the definition pro sounding anyways ?
Listen to some pro tracks of your favorite genre first to get the feeling which pro-sound u want to achive..
Then it is off to a correct mixdown, eq-ing and mastering ... (and ofcourse total arrangement, but i'm only talking about sound quality now )
On the mastering subject there was a very intresting topic some while back on MT : http://www.madtracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1991 |
Music ... is endless ... Work in progress ...
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bigandymac
Registered User
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Location: Leeds UK
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Posted: Fri Nov 17 2006 19:23
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ok, ill see if i can help at all...
ive uploaded a little clip of my latest track to illustrate things.
www.am-1.co.uk/tracks/demo_clip.mp3
right here we go...
bass - i use 3 layers, 1st is a sub bass layer which i cutoff around 60hz and below, it is sidechain compressed by the kick, which means the kick stands out more and doesnt suffer from overlapping frequencies. 2nd layer is a mid bass layer an octave above, which is basically an arp, which doesnt trigger at the same time as the kick. finally a higher band passed bass layer an octave above that. the result is a full bass sound, i usually have the level a couple of dbs below the kick level.
kick and perc - the kick is 2 layers, 1st is a higher "attack" which gives it a snappy sound, i used a clap for this, cut most of the sample off and cutoff the lower freqs. the deeper part is a sample, (try vipzone for some free kick samples). i compressed the kick, with a long enough attack that the transient still played, and eq'd to bring out the low and high freqs. the perc is a couple of programmed lines using snares, claps and hihats. then the whole lot is run through the c3 multiband compressor (i first use the radio preset, then tweak it so the high cutoff is 20khz). drop the volume on it as well as the gain is quite high. youll notice in the mix that the perc is quite quiet but still stands out also the snare/clap is snappy, and quite subtle in this track.
synths - these are clearly pretty big, standard supersaws, ive put a fair bit of reverb and delay on there as well. and cutoff the lowest frequencies to keep it all out of the way of the bass and kick. ive also got a subtle mirror layer that is an octave higher using a different synth. this gives the synth a bit of character and body (like a good wine). i also cutoff the highest freqs as well, up to about 11khz i think, which just gives the perc a bit more room.
overall mix - ok i did a few things in madtracker:
levels - getting the volumes of all the components right is very important. this track ive tweaked a few times to get it right. listening to a few commercial tracks, and then listening to your own track is the best way of getting closest. for example, in this track perc is subtle, kicks are prominent and synths are prominent.
eq - ive done quite a lot of this, using a parametric eq to really bring out the high frequencies which makes the mix sparkle, ive also boosted the low frequencies quite a bit, but cutoff everything below 20hz (we cant hear that low anyway), in this track i dont think there is much below about 50hz anyway.
compression - i dont usually compress my tracks that much. getting the levels of everything right before compression is important. i like my tracks to have a big dynamic range, but to get a "pro sound" usually pretty hard compression. for me though i usually do 1.8 - 2:1 compression around 40ms attack and a long release.
limiting - this brings the overall level up of the quieter parts, and limits the peaks, again, if ive got my mix right i dont need too much of this either. just to get the peak dB to around -1dB
overall level is important - above 0dB is bad as it leads to clipping and distortion in a mix (although a little overdrive on some parts can be good sometimes) but too quiet and it doesnt make as much impact on the listener. i aim for around -0.5 - -1.5dB depending on what im making.
stereo enhancement is pretty important. stereo enhancement on the bass doesnt hold up as well as on the high freqs. so its worth doing it in your mix rather than on the exported file. saying that though i do, which is bad practice, but quicker. in the mix though, stereo enhancement on perc, synths, pads and mid bass all sounds really nice, so use it liberally.
ive probably missed out loads of stuff, and im sure some people will disagree with things ive said, but a pro sounding track is very subjective and depends massively on what genre youre making. |
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