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CHICAGO¤lollie
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003

Posted: Fri Aug 29 2003 03:58

Brian wrote:

Za!ppa wrote:

Quote:

what do you think? unnecessary extra confusion for newbies? maybe this could be an option you toggle on/off.

does anything else think this might be cool?

I don't think theres any reason to call the same note two different things. If it should be in MT3 it should definately be optional.

ANY SERIOUS MUSICIANS SHOULD SEE THE VALUE IN THIS FEATURE!

Gyah! Ok, calm down, calm down Smile

Well, I guess it all depends on HOW you see your notes.
Like, for instance, I say potato, you say patato, same goes for notes.

I say F#, you say Gb.
You say Db, I say C#

See? Wink

Brian
User

Joined: 10 Aug 2003

Posted: Fri Aug 29 2003 06:12
Um... NO. Can you read sheet music? Ever tried? Why, please tell me, would you ever use only sharps if you have written a song based in (for example) in the key of E flat which in PROPER MUSICAL NOTATION uses flats, not sharps. You see, every scale uses all seven letters of the musical alphabet: A,B,C,D,E, F, G. An E flat scale goes (properly) as follows: Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D. If you used the E flat scale in MadTracker, it would look like this: D#, F, G, G#, A#, C, D. Notice how the D and G appear twice, and there is no E or B in the scale. True, 'tis in the eye of the beholder, but there is a correct way of writing music and an incorrect way of writing music. If you don't think it matters then go take lessons. Then again, if you can't print the sheet music, and you don't know how to read music anyway, then I can see why it doesn't matter to you!

Sunbuster
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Finland

Posted: Fri Aug 29 2003 09:15
Seems I need to learn how to read sheet music, since that talk was complete gibberish to me Guess it's in the eyes of the beholder, but if it can be made optional then why not (if it's not too much work to implement)

CHICAGO¤lollie
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003

Posted: Fri Aug 29 2003 10:44

Brian wrote:

Um... NO. Can you read sheet music? Ever tried? Why, please tell me, would you ever use only sharps if you have written a song based in (for example) in the key of E flat which in PROPER MUSICAL NOTATION uses flats, not sharps. You see, every scale uses all seven letters of the musical alphabet: A,B,C,D,E, F, G. An E flat scale goes (properly) as follows: Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D. If you used the E flat scale in MadTracker, it would look like this: D#, F, G, G#, A#, C, D. Notice how the D and G appear twice, and there is no E or B in the scale.

True, 'tis in the eye of the beholder, but there is a correct way of writing music and an incorrect way of writing music. If you don't think it matters then go take lessons. Then again, if you can't print the sheet music, and you don't know how to read music anyway, then I can see why it doesn't matter to you!

Well, although the majority of us cannot read sheet music, that of us who can shouldn't really care about it. It's easier with just sharps, I think. That's what we're all used to, right? Smile

Blaster
Registered User

Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: Netherlands/Germany

Posted: Fri Aug 29 2003 22:41
Well I still have to see the first program that has flats visually incorperated (except music notation programs smartasses). Really it shouldn't be a problem, I mean you know it's the same key it just looks different on screen. Does that stop you from composing? Another thing: will there be an optional windows-style interface? It's what I like in Modplug Tracker & Psycle. Copy & Paste with Control+C & Control+P. That kinda stuff.. Selecting with holding the left mouse button and a right click quick interface. I realize that users of earlier trackers and of madtracker itself are used to the current interface, but for new users it's a bitch to work with. If the treshold could be lowered a bit for new people it will be easier to really get 'in' the program. I don't think many people like learning new interfaces. Especially when there's stiff competition from other programs.

D Vibe
Registered User

Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: Sweden

Posted: Fri Aug 29 2003 23:15
Well, I guess MT2 is made for users who are already used to classic trackers like Protracker (Amiga) and Fasttracker. MT3 will be a total other story.
https://www.dvibe.se

Brian
User

Joined: 10 Aug 2003

Posted: Fri Aug 29 2003 23:35
Well, okay but heaven forbid if you graduate from tracking to working with real musicians. The moment you say "Ok guys, play this!" and show them a string of notes with nothing but sharps is the moment they won't take you seriously.

Blaster
Registered User

Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: Netherlands/Germany

Posted: Fri Aug 29 2003 23:54
Well ok But don't you think in scales and press the keys accordingly? Or do you look at the screen wondering what key to press (my preferred method of working )? How do you work now (just trying to understand)? I know it's easy for me to say that it doesn't really matter since I don't have any troubles with the missing flats. Either way is ok with me, I don't mind if it's implemented or not. I only think it shouldn't have too much priority since trackers have been without this so long, there's not many people who miss this.

Big Mo
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Hoogeveen, The Netherlands

Posted: Sun Aug 31 2003 00:05

Brian wrote:

I can read sheet music, right. But I've never seen the advance of using flats in a tracker. I actually started reading sheet music first, and later tracking. When I inserted notes from a sheet I just press, for instance, the Eb-key (which is '3' or 'd') which will make a D# appear on the screen. But I don't understand why this is a problem. You don't have to read those notes to play an instrument, right? And why would you use the 'proper musical notation' if it sounds right the other way?
I don't want flats to be implemented since it will only make it harder for most people to understand. For instance, I won't use it. If you want to make music with correct notation, use midi notation programs like Encore or even Finale.
And if you have a "string of notes" you wanna play, export it to midi and place it in the right key.

Spaceman wrote:

Well I still have to see the first program that has flats visually incorperated (except music notation programs smartasses).

Ever heard of Cakewalk? Razz

But serious, if you exit the "tracking world" and enter the midi world, most programs have flats and sharps. Examples? Cubase, Reason, DirectMusic Producer, Sonar, Band-in-a-Box etc.etc.etc. And this can't be called music notation programs.

CHICAGO¤lollie
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003

Posted: Sun Aug 31 2003 13:13

Big Mo wrote:

Brian wrote:

Spaceman wrote:

Well I still have to see the first program that has flats visually incorperated (except music notation programs smartasses).

Ever heard of Cakewalk? Razz

That's what I was getting at! ...sorta!

CHICAGO¤lollie wrote:

Well, although the majority of us cannot read sheet music, that of us who can shouldn't really care about it. It's easier with just sharps, I think. That's what we're all used to, right? Smile

So yeah! I don't think it really matters if there's flats or sharps or cresendos or just whatever you wanna call them. Razz

Besides, you don't graduate from the tracking world. You don't get some cheesy certificate saying "Welcome to the real world, Mr Anderson" at you. It's all luck of the draw, man. The more talent you have, the more luck that's on your side for getting into a recording label or something.

I know sheet music too, y`know Surprised

Brian
User

Joined: 10 Aug 2003

Posted: Mon Sep 01 2003 08:38

Spaceman wrote:

Well ok

But don't you think in scales and press the keys accordingly? Or do you look at the screen wondering what key to press (my preferred method of working Laughing

)? How do you work now (just trying to understand)?

I know it's easy for me to say that it doesn't really matter since I don't have any troubles with the missing flats.

Either way is ok with me, I don't mind if it's implemented or not. I only think it shouldn't have too much priority since trackers have been without this so long, there's not many people who miss this.

As opposed to composing songs by pounding at my computer keyboard, I write them on a digital piano, often times midi, and use sheet music as well. Then I sit down at MadTracker and I pound out the notes using all sharps, no flats, and then I think about modifying it. But then I look at my sheet music and it's notated differently. Then I start to think about writing chords to accompany the melody but in all sharps?

I already went through the demographics of why excluding flats is wrong, I hope this example shows better why exclusing flats is also cumbersome in the writing / editing aspect.

Spaceman wrote:

most programs have flats and sharps. Examples? Cubase, Reason, DirectMusic Producer, Sonar, Band-in-a-Box etc.etc.etc.

Yes and why not MadTracker? You'd think that all of these other programs are on to something there.

CHICAGO¤lollie
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003

Posted: Mon Sep 01 2003 10:57

Brian wrote:

Spaceman wrote:

(But serious, if you exit the "tracking world" and enter the midi world,) most programs have flats and sharps. Examples? Cubase, Reason, DirectMusic Producer, Sonar, Band-in-a-Box etc.etc.etc.

Yes and why not MadTracker? You'd think that all of these other programs are on to something there.

Note: MadTracker. There, see that magical word of wisdom? MadTracker.

Here's the quote again:

Spaceman wrote:

But serious, if you exit the "tracking world" and enter the midi world--

Ok, there. If you exit the "tracking world" -- That's what you're supposed to see. MadTracker is still part of the tracking world.

You've gotta consider that once MadTracker steps out of the tracking world, it will no longer be a tracker, and should have flats available. But the point is that MadTracker will no longer be a tracker, and hence forth no longer be able to use the name MadTracker.

Blaster
Registered User

Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: Netherlands/Germany

Posted: Mon Sep 01 2003 11:45
Whoa this is going very wrong here with all those quotes. I didn't write the statements quoted in the post above

Big Mo
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Hoogeveen, The Netherlands

Posted: Wed Sep 03 2003 20:26
Look, I din't want to say that it's impossible to have flats available in a tracker, don't get me wrong, but I think it isn't necessary. I also have played sheet music on a piano into MadTracker, but I never had problems with the 'all sharp'-notation. On the other side, when I'm playing live, I couldn't play it when there are no flats used. But in a tracker I don't think it's necessary.

Brian
User

Joined: 10 Aug 2003

Posted: Wed Sep 03 2003 20:41

Big Mo wrote:

Look, I din't want to say that it's impossible to have flats available in a tracker, don't get me wrong, but I think it isn't necessary. I also have played sheet music on a piano into MadTracker, but I never had problems with the 'all sharp'-notation. On the other side, when I'm playing live, I couldn't play it when there are no flats used. But in a tracker I don't think it's necessary.

Ahhh.... yes indeed. Thank you Big Mo. As long as you don't want to play live shows (hence making a career from music), then flats are useless to you. Thanks for a beautiful summary of the entire argument.

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