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CHICAGO¤lollie
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003

Posted: Tue Aug 10 2004 11:19

Inge wrote:

Man. With a post-holiday fever, I will *not* read through this entire post. Just summarize once everything is crystallised into concrete ideas Smile

Inge (back. yes. be afraid.)

Cheater.

Eternal Engine
Registered User

Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posted: Tue Aug 10 2004 12:07

CHICAGO¤lollie wrote:

Eternal Engine wrote:

PS. Read the rules closely and think of them. They aren't complex...

I had Word on 200%, `cause my res is so high. Close enough? Razz

Eternal Engine wrote:

Sunbuster wrote:

I still like the idea of every participant sending a sample pack, that others have to use. The packs could be password protected, so everyone could download in their own time (like before). That of course means either everyone has to download all packs, or it has to be decided in advanced who gets which pack... Confused

As I think the passwords are not needed. I think my scheme if
distribution is ideal and doesn't require any changes and additions. Wink

But if that's the case, then anyone could download the samplepacks and spend time beforehand on their entry. With some simple before-hand thinking (Ie: Changing the time and date of their clocks to a few minutes after the starting time, that of which would be announced for the compo to go smoothly, then working on the entry before the starting time, and saving before uploading), the entry could be finished with the appearance of meeting basic rules, and reviewers would most likely be none the wiser, thus an illegal entry would come about.

Of course, the location to these samplepacks would need to be provided for that to happen, but it is something you have to take into consideration. Wink

I think about this problem. We can make 2 pass for uploading.
In first pass all upload samplepacks with passwords.
In second pass all upload 0 bytes file which have name of samplepack and in additional password of this samplepack.
For example 1283761287_fish. "fish" is the password.
Normal scheme?

Eternal Engine
Registered User

Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posted: Tue Aug 10 2004 12:44
BTW... First pass is before the compo is started. Second pass is after compo started.

Elijah
Registered User

Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Eh?

Posted: Tue Aug 10 2004 14:59
so then... you agree with lollie's "boring" idea? i think we need a very simple get-drunk-and-make-a-wierd-song mini compo thing.. haha i almost wrote 'thong' :edit: dont get me wrong i like the overall idea of this compo as well.
- Elijah

CHICAGO¤lollie
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003

Posted: Tue Aug 10 2004 15:16

PimpJuse wrote:

so then...

you agree with lollie's "boring" idea?

Razz

*ahem* Excuse me?
Who said it was my idea, Elijah?
I remember downloading a samplepack when the mini-compos were around, and the RAR file was password protected. I just naturally assumed that they always worked that way.

Keep that pipe in your gob, Mr Frodo. Razz

Elijah
Registered User

Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Eh?

Posted: Tue Aug 10 2004 15:17
haha sorry bro. i havent competed in any mini compos, nor have i read/understood the rules of them
- Elijah

Eternal Engine
Registered User

Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posted: Wed Aug 11 2004 11:08
Hello again, I closely analysed attentions about cheating made by chicago-lollie and by others and came to the following conclusion. Anyway, we don't need passwords because they'll make not too simple rules more complex, but the possibilities for cheating will still remain. I guess we need a person who will monitor the ftp logs and directories of the compo to search the double uploads and other elements of possible cheating. If Yannick is interested in attending this compo and in publishing it's results then he can be such person. And he could made on-the-way check of the logs during compo results publishing. Of course if he has full access to the logs of ftp.madtracker.net. If he hasn't such possibility, I think it's no sense to make the rules more complex and cheating can remain on the competitors' shame. Also, as at the end all the competitors will download to their computers all the compo compositions they can specially check the composition written using their samplepack and if it was cheatingly replaced they can set the question of cheating for voting and to disqualify cheating competitor. As during attending the compo without access to ftp logs we won't have any proof of cheating this question can be solved only by voting of everybody. therefore the rules of this compo remain almost without any changes, we have only disqualification rules added, that is, the case of everybody voting against cheating. I still wait for possible changes which Sunbuster wanted to do for disqualification rules. Also I wait for general comments from Yannick. By the way, when the rules are discussed we can try to attend the test compo with the existing rules. If the question of ftp on madtracker.net won't solve until Friday, at Friday I'll made ftp folder at free server and in any case will wait for the possible competitors on the irc channel at 19:45 of central european time. I'll write about the results in this topic.

Sunbuster
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Finland

Posted: Fri Aug 13 2004 18:59
ok, I've been giving this thing some thought the last days, and there are a couple of things that pose a problem, mostly due to there probably being a few people out there who run on slow connections: #1. The sample packs really should be uploaded before the compo starts, so people with slow connections have a chance to download them before the compo starts, so they have the same time as others to work with the material. Which leads to #2. If packs have to be uploaded before the start of the compo, it takes away some of the spontanity (word?) of the mini-compo. It means you as the participant have to plan ahead. Participation can't be a spur of the moment thing, which it can be now. #3. Who works with which sample pack should be determined before the compo starts, so people don't have to download all packs. This can be solved of course the way Eternal Engine proposed, with everyone taking the pack that has a higher numbered filename then the one they uploaded themselves. But this again means that the packs have to be listed somewhere before the compo starts. #4. The compo duration should be 2h excluding upload and download time, again to give the slow connection people some slack. Upload should however begin before the compo ends. #5. The voting system seems extremely complicated as it is now. To be honest, I don't remember how it worked in the earlier mini-compos, but perhaps we should consider making some sort of webbased voting system? #6. This system as it is now still needs at least two impartial people who will act as vote counters and admins of the compo. #7. the disqualification rules are too strickt imo, so I'd suggest to skip them completely. The only rule I'd keep is that the samples may not be modified (which can be checked by comparing filesizes of the mt2 original mt2 and the music mt2 with patterns cleaned away). Second rule I'd keep is that the upload has to have started before the compo ended, otherwise you're out. How that should be checked I don't know. Third of course, if you haven't uploaded a sample pack, you can't participate. About the uploading system, how about the following: 30 minutes before the compo starts people upload their packs to a server that gives them write only permissions to start with. The admin of the compo however has full privileges of course, but he can't participate in the compo. After a pack has been uploaded the admin adds a password to it, the same password for all packs. Then when the compo starts, the privileges are changed to read & write for all participants and the password is announced on IRC. This system of course means we need an admin that has control over the ftp server. I'll still give all of this some more thought, but I'm afraid the bottom line still is that the rules as they are now are too complex, and need to be simplified greatly for them to be practical.

QBical
Registered User

Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: Utrecht , The Netherlands

Posted: Fri Aug 13 2004 22:29
What was wrong with the old mini-compo rules and ways of doing things? grtz qb
PC: P4 HT 3ghz, 1gb ram, 500GB+ Storage, plextor DVD-rw, M-audo Audiophile 2496 Laptop: Apple Powerbook G4 15inch Other Stuff: Phonic MU802 mixer, Alesis M1 Active Mk2 Monitors, Ipod 2nd gen. 20GB, maxtor firewire HD 80GB

Inge
Man-At-Arms

Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: Nieuw Lekkerland @ Holland

Posted: Fri Aug 13 2004 22:32

QBical wrote:

What was wrong with the old mini-compo rules and ways of doing things?

grtz
qb

I support that statement. I liked the old system. It was focussed on the music, not the rules, and that's what matters, right?

No offence meant for anyone planning ingenious systems, but it must remain workable, low threshold entry and fun. It's a minicompo, not the olympics Wink

Inge

Care for a game of Monopoly?

Sunbuster
Registered User

Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Finland

Posted: Sat Aug 14 2004 09:03
The main thing that interests me in the "new" rules is that everyone would work with different sample packs. But other than that I too think the old system worked just fine.

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